Another episode of Good or Bad! With my good friend, A.J. Jacobs! In this episode, we talked about the good and the bad of cars!
Do you ever wonder about the good and the bad about the thing that you sees every day?
Take cars for instance. Are cars, good? Or Bad? Just in general?
In this episode, A.J. Jacobs, and I talked about the good and the bad about cars!
Listen to the episode, and tweet us at @jaltucher, and @ajjacobs and tell us, what do you think about cars!
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James Altucher 0:02
You listen to podcasts in the car? Oh, yeah, no, I never listened to music. When people asked me where do people listen to podcasts. And when I, you know, the little research I've done on this. It's always cars, people always tell me cars and the gym. And obviously, people are much more in cars than in the gym. And so I think that is the primary people have switched, essentially from radio. And even like FM radio to podcasts. Yeah, no podcast with the new radio.
AJ Jacob 0:30
I find. I don't drive that much, but, and I never go to the gym. So do listen to podcasts, walking my dog.
James Altucher 0:40
Okay, I don't walk a dog, drive a car or go to the gym. And I don't listen to pocket. You just make them good or bad cars. AJ, take it away?
AJ Jacob 0:51
Yes. All right. Well, welcome. Good or bad. This is the show where we talk about a big topic and decide whether it's overall good for the world or bad for the world and cars. That's a big one. Our cars the perfect metaphor for freedom. Are they what America is all about? Or are they murderous, polluting beasts that are bringing on the climate apocalypse,
James Altucher 1:20
climate apocalypse, and then the evolution of cars will bring on kind of a massive depression, airy unemployment crisis.
AJ Jacob 1:29
Oh, I want to hear about that sounds fun. Well,
James Altucher 1:32
and then there's the safety factor our cars, you know, safe or unsafe? Do they lead to greater crime and so on?
AJ Jacob 1:39
Right. And I want to be clear up front that I do have a pre existing bias. And I think you did, too. So let's just get those out of the way. I grew up in New York City. And so I, I never really fell in love with cars. I'm a terrible driver. Recently, I was driving to my cousin's wedding, and listening to an audio book about Albert Einstein. And I found Albert Einstein more interesting than the road. So I kind of swerved than I overcorrected. I jumped the highway median median into oncoming traffic, and miraculously, no one was hurt. But that's the
James Altucher 2:18
key is what was the book on Einstein? I want to read it now.
AJ Jacob 2:21
Oh, it's Walter Isaacson's biography. Dangerous. Don't read it. So interesting. You know,
James Altucher 2:26
I don't listen to audio books. You know? Yeah.
AJ Jacob 2:29
What do you do? I read them. Okay. That's impressive.
James Altucher 2:36
Oh, but But to your point, though, you said you're a bad driver. Yeah. I also say I'm a bad driver. But you know, nine out of 10 people, and this is this is research. Nine out of 10. People say they're an above the median driver. And there's something called a losery superiority. So everybody thinks that in their given field, they're above average. So professors are notorious, actually. Professors surveyed 94% think they're have think they have a higher IQ than their peers. So, but there's this cognitive bias that you think you're kind of better than you are. And so and driving is also really bad for us. Everyone says, oh, yeah, I'm a really great driver. I know, I'm a bad driver, like I will kill people behind this two ton, 60 mile per hour weapon, if I'm in charge of it.
AJ Jacob 3:28
So what is Do you drive a lot? Do you?
James Altucher 3:32
I don't drive at all, I had a license. I lost it in 2002. And I've driven a little since then of illegally. And you know, when I've tried to get a license it is so the DMV offices are so behind the times that it's, there's no it's all like paper. I've had, I've been to five different offices in four different states to kind of rectify some problems I had. And there's just no way to do it. Like I cannot get a license just because of the sheer bureaucracy it would be like a full time job for me to try to get a license. And not that I want one actually, I was going against my Well, I don't want one.
AJ Jacob 4:15
Well, are we allowed to know what happened in 2002?
James Altucher 4:19
Yeah, it was nothing. I I was in Connecticut. And there was like a stop. So I was like midnight, coming back from a friend's house and there was a stop sign hidden by bushes, and I went past it. And the cop pulled me over and he's like, sorry about this and and then that would have been it. I could have just paid and kept my license. But I'm really bad at paperwork and follow up as everybody who works with me knows and I just never paid that fine until 15 years later. And you know, some of my dad my license was suspended. Then they kept finding older and older you know, speeding tickets that I never paid the fines for. And so Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Connecticut, New York, nobody communicates with each other. This, I have it for in order for me to get a license now I have to get letters from all these states. And then I have to start from scratch, like taking the driver's test taking the written exam, the driving exam, and I'm just not going to do whatever. Because also, I'm a bad driver. I've been I've been in accidents ever since I was 17 years old. Can I tell you one story quick start? Hell yeah. One time I was visiting my dad in New Jersey in the hospital, he was in a coma after a stroke. And I was driving illegally, of course. So I was driving home from there. And I was a little disoriented. And I saw up in front of me, a police barricade for some reason. And I got I got really paranoid, I thought they're going to catch me driving without a license, I'm going to go to jail. So I quickly made a right turn. And all these police officers started running after me like, hey, stop, stop. And I stopped. And the police officer looked at it and said, Do you realize you're going the wrong way down a one way road? And I said, Oh, I'm really sorry. I just got lost. And he said, Well, let me see your license. And I said, I left it at home. I'm sorry. I was visiting my dad and I use my dad as an excuse. And then he said, Well, let me see. He said, You've got to be kidding me. You're driving the wrong way down a one way road. You don't have your license. Let me see your, you know, whatever registration permit. And it was my ex wife's car. So it was in her name. And he's He's like, he's hitting his head. He's like, You have got to be kidding me. You're driving the wrong way down a one way road. He don't have a license. And this is not your car. And then he said, You know what? Just go I cannot deal with this right now. And then I still was lost. So I turn around. And I said, Excuse me, can you just give me directions how to get back to New York State. And he's just he's like, You stop it just get out of here.
AJ Jacob 7:06
So if you're gonna break the law break a lot of laws, so it's too much give them too much paperwork. All right. I love that. That's a very useful life hack. That is funny.
James Altucher 7:16
You know, one more life hack. I'm sorry. Yeah, you are stopped for a speeding ticket. You and I were just talking about mutual friend of ours, Joey Coleman, who won that speaking contest, Joey Coleman gave me this advice, which is that of years and he's a lawyer, ex lawyer, ex FBI. He said, If you're stopped for a speeding ticket, he almost always gets out of it. By just saying he complies with everything. He's really nice. You know, you keep your hands on the wheel. You respond to everything when the officer says, Don't admit guilt, but don't deny it, whatever. And but then he says, Say to the officer, look, I just need to inform you by law that I am going to contest this in court. And the police officer, the worst thing you can do to a police officer is make them stay off the road and hang out in a court. So you a police officer usually just gives him a warning after that. Really? Yeah. That's his life hack.
AJ Jacob 8:09
Interesting. Now he is a white man. So we got to keep Right, right? We don't know in any other context. Right. But I have never had the Coneys to do that.
James Altucher 8:20
Any flashes? Old FBI badge that muscle?
AJ Jacob 8:23
Well, there you go. I gotta get one of those. There for sale. Oh, really? Yeah, I guess so. Everything is speaking of stop signs. I, this is how I know I'm a bad driver is sometimes I will stop at a stop sign and wait for it to change. And like, and then it'll be like three minutes. And I'm like, oh, it's not I mean, it'll rust eventually. But that's gonna be like 50 years.
James Altucher 8:50
Do you think that's a mental deficiency? That sounds like more than just being a bad driver. Like something you're making? A? You know, it's always a question about whether certain types of mental illness are superpowers because they allow you to think outside of the box or if they're actually problems that are need to be dealt with, like you. You connected the dots in this strange way between traffic lights and stop signs in your brain would not dissuade you.
AJ Jacob 9:18
Yeah, no, it was it was a category error. Yeah. And I would say I'm sure it represents something deeper. So yeah, I'm just I'm glad for America that I rarely drive.
James Altucher 9:29
Well. At least you do not fall for the cognitive bias of illusory superiority now,
AJ Jacob 9:34
which I've also heard called the Lake Wobegon effect, because everyone in Lake Wobegon is above average Garrison Keillor, right, exactly. I would recommend we start with the good of cars, cars have lots of good things,
James Altucher 9:49
and they're totally correlated. This is an obvious thing. So it's not part of the good but they're totally correlated with economic development and countries as people transport things faster and you As more and more, you have companies have more a much bigger labor pool, because it's not just who's a few blocks away. It's who's within 100 miles, right?
AJ Jacob 10:10
Yeah, they are, they are all about they are definitely contributing to the economy of the world until the economy totally crashes because of the climate, a cop apocalypse, or because
James Altucher 10:20
the cars, whatever.
AJ Jacob 10:24
But there are plenty of good things. Here, let me just start with a couple random ones. One. Now I don't feel this. But the joy of driving some people just love the pleasure of getting behind a wheel. And I found this quote, this goes back a long way. 1900 There was a an automotive magazine. And the writer said, it is recognized that the main excuse for speed mania is the desire to feel new sensations, and to prevent the emptiness of a purposeless life. So I thought that was a lovely little quote. Now when they did speed Mania 1900. Literally, we're talking five miles an hour. But for them, that was exciting.
James Altucher 11:13
And let me ask you, because I love that quote. And I, you and I both probably don't relate to it, but I could see why he would relate to because it was such a new experience. At that time, wasn't there a fear of a speed limit on the human body, that if a car went a certain speed, that could be better? Maybe this is more related to planes, but I thought even with cars, they thought if if cars increased the sort of speed that the human body wouldn't be able to handle it.
AJ Jacob 11:41
That's fascinating. I actually heard a very interesting interview with the editor of Car and Driver magazine. He was on the how do we fix it podcast, and he has like raving about how driving is the best part of his day, and how the ability to drive long distances is linked to American exceptionalism because we all come up with our best ideas while driving. And I looked into it Gertrude Stein did say that she came up with her best ideas while driving, she would drive around farms and look at cows.
James Altucher 12:18
Okay, well, let me ask you a serious question about this, then. Yeah, what was Gertrude Stein's best idea?
AJ Jacob 12:23
Roses roses arose. Really? That's her? His letter? I don't know. Let's see. Maybe
James Altucher 12:30
I'm not sure she's known for her great ideas. Like Like most writing I've read from her is not my favorite
AJ Jacob 12:38
rose is a rose is a rose is a rose. There you go. Floor roses, I only thought it was three seats. She's like, more of a genius than I ever thought or as much as like 25% more ingenious then
James Altucher 12:50
it's like Jane Austen did three roses. But who would have thought a four?
AJ Jacob 12:57
Wait, I think most
James Altucher 12:59
people come with great ideas like in the shower is a known place where people come with great ideas.
AJ Jacob 13:04
Well at least talked about this. Because I that doesn't work for me. I have to inspired by you partly carve out 15 minutes a day just for idea generation just for brainstorming. That's
James Altucher 13:18
you still do that? Yeah, absolutely every day. But do you also come up with ideas in the car or in the shower? While I'm never in a car walks over? What about a shower? We're hoping but shower. Yeah, definitely. But But I but I don't consider them done ideas as in terms of ideation until I've written them down. So I write down 10 ideas a day, as a practice every
AJ Jacob 13:39
day. I love that. And by the way, I also remember more recently than maybe this is more impressive to you than Gertrude Stein, Stephen Cole bear. I heard an interview with him. And he talked about how the network offered him a car service because he lives in New Jersey. And he said no, because he finds that driving is when he comes up with his best ideas. There's something about your, your conscious mind is is involved with making sure you don't crash and it releases the non conscious mind. Obviously it works for some people, not us. Well. Well.
James Altucher 14:19
Howard Stern, this is related. As Howard Stern has said he has a driver take him to work and he lives I guess in Long Island or he did when he wrote this that he meditates on his commute says different different things to do on your commute podcast idea generation meditation, if you have a driver,
AJ Jacob 14:36
yeah, don't meditate. If you are driving, that would be my
James Altucher 14:41
at least not the closing your eyes sort of meditation.
AJ Jacob 14:43
Yeah, exactly. Keep your eyes open. All right. Well, that I have another positive. Do you have one you want to throw in or you want me to?
James Altucher 14:53
Yeah, I mean, I think again, cars allow us to have more opportunities. In life, you can drive from New York to California in three or four days, you can take jobs that are 100 miles or more away from your home. So so instead of living in an urban city, where you're tightly packed in with, you know, millions of others, and there's potential for more crime and less space for your family in no yards, you could live in a home with a nice yard, you know, every family with an acre, sort of saying, and so there's, you could argue cars have increased to a quality of lifestyle. I think that's also the bad which we can get to later. But cars have definitely increased opportunities for both the worker and the employer in terms of, like I said earlier, having a higher pool to draw upon. And
AJ Jacob 15:47
yeah, I know, I agree. I mean, I think you, you touch on two things there too. Because there's the freedom. So you have much more freedom where you live. And without cars, you wouldn't have the suburbs, which of course, the suburbs have their good and bad parts. But But
James Altucher 16:03
I would argue, by the way, the good and bad of cars, the good and bad of the good and bad of suburbs, the good and bad of suburbs has to be discussed, because suburbs are intimately connected to cars. Yeah, I think I think I think what's interesting here is kind of the good of cars is almost sort of obvious, creates opportunities, is fun, to some extent, is it allows Ross a greater choice. So you can instead of going to a grocery store across the street, you can go to the grocery store of the mall, 10 miles away, and you can have greater choice of goods that you buy. So this this has a deflationary effect on the economy when you have more choice, and that in general is good for the economy as well. So, you know, I think there's a lot of I think people just assume there's a lot of goods, just That's why there's 268 million cars on the road in the US 6.3 million cars sold last year. In general, it's not like people are saying cars are bad and are avoiding them. Everybody's got a car. Everybody's got two cars. But
AJ Jacob 17:05
I do think you touched on a great point, which is the freedom I think that is the central metaphor of American cars, this idea of freedom, being able to go when you want, where you want, I found and Elon Musk quote about why he thinks cars are great and public transportation, in his words, sucks. So let me just read that real quick. I think public transport is painful. It sucks. Why? Why do you want to get on something with a lot of other people that doesn't leave where you want to, I'm sorry, that doesn't leave where you want it to leave? Doesn't stair start where you want it to start? doesn't end where you want it to end it and it doesn't go all the time. It's a pain in the ass. That's why everyone doesn't like it. And there's a bunch of random strangers, one of whom might be a serial killer. So that's why people like individualised transport.
James Altucher 18:00
Yeah, I don't know. Because the benefits of the bus is that people who aren't in on one extreme billionaires like Elon Musk, or even, you know, middle class workers, people who are more impoverished have a chance to have the same opportunities that people with cars have. So I can still live in the suburbs. But take a bus. When I first working in New York City I live with my parents for for only a week or two in New Jersey. But I took a bus into work because I wasn't gonna drive a car.
AJ Jacob 18:29
I was thinking, this idea of freedom and cars. It's inspired so much music and art. I mean, it's so American. You've got Bruce Springsteen, my wife's favorite singer. Yeah, Bruce has just so many great car and driving songs. Here's one I'll just read you a stanza from his Cadillac Ranch, Eldorado fins, white walls and skirts rise just like a little bit of heaven here on earth. Well, buddy, When I die, throw my body in the back and drives me to the junkyard in my Cadillac. That's beautiful. Yeah, but I did learn this in, in Vanity Fair. He talks about how he actually was not a good driver and didn't get his driver's license until he was in his 20s. So you and him have a lot in common.
James Altucher 19:21
Well, you know, the other thing is and and Bruce Springsteen is is it's interesting, you know, he's very much a voice of, let's call the American working class and an American from Born in the USA but working class from Stan from many of his songs, and his background and trucks. I mean, you know, truck driving trucks are a kind of car has vastly improve the economy because allows you to transport goods from coast to coast. It employs three and a half million workers plus probably an additional five to 10 million who I work in truckstops motels and so on along the way says it's probably about 12 million people overall in the US relating who who are employed because of the trucking industry, not to mention all the benefits we get from the this is the most economical transportation of goods. That's why, you know, Walmart is fully stocked all the time, as opposed to only going to your local mom and pop grocery store, which has its ups and downs. But overall, it's allowed us to feed a lot more people. So I mean, again, for the economy, cars, trucks, everything seems to be directly correlated to the growth in the American economy, which is the largest economy in the world, for despite being only 3% of the world's population,
AJ Jacob 20:44
right. I mean, I remember when I was doing my book on the origins of coffee, I spent some time with truckers, and it really changed my mind because when I when I do drive, and attract passes by me, I'm always like, pissed off, like, you know, you guys was so annoying, they're gonna drive me off the road. But if I want my coffee, then I better be thankful for trucks.
James Altucher 21:08
Yeah. And and, you know, again, it's so natural to come up with the goods, the good things about cars and automate and and automotives that it almost seems contrarian to come up with the bad. But the bad is very important, because I think it's also moving more into the front page of the news, what the in a variety of ways, whether it's climate or economy, or, you know, electric cars, and so on. It's starting to be part of the national debate, whereas it never was before. Really?
AJ Jacob 21:41
Yeah, you're right. It wasn't like cars were controversial. But I do feel that swing in that way, like, yeah, cars are in troubled cars, and what else? What else is on cars and vaping? But those, yes, those
James Altucher 21:55
are bad, the bad has not yet outweighed the good and the public, in the public eye just because, again, 6.3 million cars sold last year, right? Everyone drives except you and me and a few others in New York City and other cities.
AJ Jacob 22:10
Right? Can I give two more positives about cars, and then we will start to trash them, which I always enjoy? I mean, one, historically, cars helped usher in the sexual revolution. Even the apparently there were two sexual revolutions, one in the 20s, and one in the 60s. So it really is, yeah, that's what it's, that's one of my research turned up. And yeah, the one in the 20s was definitely all about cars, and, you know, going to NEC and giving you a place to do your thing. And, and actually, if driverless cars take off, that is going to be like usher in the new revolution for sex and cars, because you don't have to try you can have sex all the time, like you can on your car in your car, and BMW. I googled sex and cars. And some interesting stuff came up. But relevantly, BMW has a new ad, strongly hinting that in car sack like if you buy their driverless cars in the future, you'll get to have sex with a hot woman, or a hot man. Well,
James Altucher 23:21
I think a lot of car ads are like that, like, you see the car, you know, zipping along the highway, you know, dust flying out, and then some beautiful woman or, you know, some beautiful guy with a beautiful woman get out of the car. And so there's this impression that if you get their car, you're going to be having, you know, or more more luck, you know, with with your relationship.
AJ Jacob 23:44
Absolutely. I think that is the central thesis to most car ads. This one is just a little more on point in that you will get to not only have sex, but have sex in the car.
James Altucher 23:56
You know, I wonder if there'll be built in beds in automated cars, just like right now the biggest car in the world is they retrofitted this Eldorado Cadillac, I guess? It has. It's so big. It's ridiculous. I forget how many feet it is big but has a hell of pad in the back. You can land a helicopter on the car. This is a Jacuzzi. And it requires two drivers come
AJ Jacob 24:19
on. Oh, where? Who has it like a Saudi Sheikh or something?
James Altucher 24:23
I don't know. I saw I saw a picture of a parked in New York City. So I don't know who has it.
AJ Jacob 24:29
We got to go riding on that. That sounds excellent. All right. And then finally, I think it not only gives people joy to drive cars, it gives them joy to own them and work on them. And I found this quote by Roland Bart, the French author. And he said this was a couple decades ago, but he said I think cars today are the exact equivalent of the great Gothic cathedrals. The Super creation of an era conceived with passion by unknown artists consumed in image if not usage by whole populations, which appropriate them as a purely magical object. So he's saying cars are the Gothic cathedrals of the of the present?
James Altucher 25:18
Well think about the the image of the 50s. Teenager, the James Dean, South teenager, you know, you always picture them, you know, sleeves rolled up working on their car, you know, it was considered like a coming of age, when a man learns how to fix fix the car fixes car. Now, of course, cars are computerized, basically, a car is a big computer with a car app in it, right. And that's what a car is. And you know, my, my worry there, this is neither good or bad. This is just a worry. But you know how phones, like it used to be a car, you could say my car has been around 20 years. And, you know, you just keep fixing it and fixing it. But I'm worried with these computerized cars, you can't really fix them, because they're so sophisticated. And I'm worried they have an expiration date, just like phones have been known to have like, when the next version comes out, your car dies. Now, technology is such that, for instance, with a Tesla, you can get an update now on your car over the air, like they'll wirelessly send you an update, but maybe not in all cases, I'm worried about that a little bit with the rise from the classic, you know, mechanical car that any teenager could fix to these computerized cars where you have to be essentially an AI engineer to fix
AJ Jacob 26:35
it. That is fascinating, because I just listened to an interesting interview with someone from the right to repair movement. And it's exactly what you're talking about. Now, technology, including cars is so complicated, you can just break it apart. And he's so we ditch it and it becomes E trash and and you just get a new one. So there's a whole movement of people who say, you got to make the screws easier, you've got a sell spare parts, because it's better forever, it's better for the environment, you save money, it's not better for the companies that can sell you a new gadget every six months. But everyone else it's good for
James Altucher 27:15
but but I think I think we're kind of in this transition period, because what's going to happen is the days of like our grandchildren are going to say to us, I can't believe you owned a car, like there's not going to be a car, the days of car ownership are probably going away. And they'll probably be just robot cars that it's just this massive sort of car on demand. You know, right now 96% of the time, cars, these 268 million cars are vacant. So But there'll come a time with the automation of cars, where a car will drop you off at work, then go and pick up someone who needs a car, drop them off at the school, go to the next person, drop them off at the gym, or whatever. And, you know, cars will not be owned by any one person, but you know, just kind of this mass, you know, much smaller car, much fewer cars on the road, but providing as many services and nobody needs to own them.
AJ Jacob 28:16
Right. Which I think, again, of course good and bad, but overall good. I think the sharing economy, like I'm too old. So I get annoyed about sharing things. And I always, you know, I'm a total hypocrite because I always tell my kids, oh, you know, sharing is the most important thing. And I fucking hate to share. So. But I think you're right, that is the future of cars. And it's probably overall a good thing.
James Altucher 28:43
Probably, although there is the counter argument. And like you said, there's always good or bad. There's the counter argument. And we'll I think we'll get to this more fully, but many people will lose their jobs, the car industry is a you know, 100 billion dollar or sorry, just the trucking industry is like $100 billion industry car industry is much bigger, and a significant part of GDP has to be will disappear and needs to be figured out as cars. You know, maybe we'll get 1/5 The amount of cars on the road, and much and no need for car drivers anymore. No need for many people related to the car industry. So I think, you know, the role is going to change, both good and bad companies will be more efficient. But but perhaps 10s of millions of people will be out of a job starting with, you know, three and a half million truck drivers in the next few years.
AJ Jacob 29:36
Yeah, well, hopefully we'll have the universal basic income. And we'll all live lives of pursuing our hobbies and surfing and doing VR may not happen but that is That's the hope. You mentioned teens in the idea of everyone working on their car and I think that relates to this idea. The custom cars which gives people so much pleasure, and if you Google custom cars, weirdest custom cars now it's it is just a fantastic image. Really what's the weirdest custom car you saw? Um, well, there was a kiss themed one like a huge Gene Simmons, tongue coming out of the hood. There was a zoo sick, like I'm Dr. Zeus car, Azusa car. Oh my god, that must be great. There was a Hummer with a tank treads. So if it wasn't military enough now, but people love, you know, it's an expression of individuality is like, and it's also a way to a way to say what tribe you're part of, you know, if you have if you have a Tesla, you're part of one tribe. If you have, you know, Subaru, you're part of another tribe.
James Altucher 30:52
And I guess there's this element. To your point. There's this element of design and art that's probably going to go away as we standardize automated cars. Because, you know, some people like the design, almost liquidy feel of a Porsche morcha. Some people like, you know, the more blockish American cars, some people like Oh, Rolls Royce, or for instance, you know, if you look at the yellow cabs in today's New York, I really appreciate the design now. 1960s yellow cabs like I think they're beautiful,
AJ Jacob 31:27
which are Lowe's, the checker ones? Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's very nice. Yeah. Do you ever ride those? You'll
James Altucher 31:33
I wrote there were there in the 90s. There were two still legal checker cabs in New York. And I wrote in one of them,
AJ Jacob 31:41
did you use the rumble seat or whatever it was called? I don't remember that. They had a stool. Let you it. That was like a fold out stool. And so you could sit on that instead of kind of like the London calves now. Oh, is that what they have now? Interesting. Yeah, it seemed incredibly dangerous. But yeah, but back then no one cared. All right. Well, so yeah, cars are fantastic, and of episode, but
James Altucher 32:08
we haven't we haven't done the bad. Oh, I
AJ Jacob 32:11
was just kidding. Oh, I couldn't I can't wait for the bad.
James Altucher 32:19
There's an intermediate though, too, we learned that the intermediate is cars cause extra human deaths. Right. So I think 10 years ago, I 10 years ago, there was about a million deaths a year around the world, maybe 60,000 or so deaths a year in the US from car accidents. But that number has been going steadily lower year over year since they made it a since the laws requiring people to use seatbelts. So seatbelts do save lives. Yes, I would agree with that. So there was only I think 30,000 deaths, you know, more vehicle deaths last year in the US down from like 60,000. And that's all ever since they mandated that everyone must put on their seatbelt reason I put this in the intermediate carry between good or bad is that best are going down. And so potentially they could hit zero. But I think what's going to happen is automated cars are going to be so sophisticated that
AJ Jacob 33:21
I do believe that evidence shows that if we can perfect these driverless cars, then accidents will go way down. But that's going to be a hard sell to people, I think because you know, the first. Anytime that there's a, you know, anytime a self driving car slams into a lamppost. That's front page news. Whereas the 5000 car accidents a day no one pays attention to
James Altucher 33:51
but I think that's part of the transition of any, any new technology, right? Like if there was credit card identity theft in 1997, from the from an e commerce Store, that was front page news. Now, of course, it's an everyday event, but it's not news. You know, billions of dollars are transacted every day on the on the internet. So it's just part of the transition that will focus on it for a while then people will realize, oh, this is pretty good. Suddenly, everyone's using automated cars, it won't be news anymore. I'm with and by the way, they will you could just they'll be able to compare the numbers statistically 30,000 deaths versus 12 deaths.
AJ Jacob 34:29
Right. But I did actually look up the history of car accidents. I mean, first of all, this is from a New Yorker article. The article by the way is called was the automotive era. A terrible mistake. And oh, great article from his pocket. There you go. I'm because you know the answer. The answer was not like nope, it was all wonderful. It was like, yes, it was probably a terrible mistake. Why? Well, for all these reasons we're about to tell you. I mean, one is of course, the deadliness since 1899. More than three and a half million people have died in traffic accidents in the United States and 80 million have been injured. I mean, that is a really remarkable statistic.
James Altucher 35:15
What's the worst accident you've been in?
AJ Jacob 35:19
Well, it was that one where I jumped the median. But actually, but no one got hurt. No one got hurt. Some guy ram me from behind. And I broke my finger. So nothing too bad. Why
James Altucher 35:29
did they sue for billions? Because you're a writer?
AJ Jacob 35:32
And what about what about you your worst car accident.
James Altucher 35:35
I was 18 I had, I was coming back from a chess lesson, meaning I was very popular with girls in my high school. And I had just for the first time be in my chess instructor. I remember the game. To this day, I had a beautiful queen sacrifice. Even he was surprised he was the US champion, like a year later. And I was driving home I was thinking about it went right to a stop sign hit a station wagon, driven by a guy who was in his 60s and I was 18. And we both twirled around and around and around. We all there was it was on a corner in an intersection. All four fences of the four houses on that corner were all smashed. Somehow by our cars. I went through the window and broke the window. And he but I ended up somehow without a scratch. Like I bounced back into the car. The car was smashed to pieces, but I had zero injuries. And the other guy, unfortunately, broke his leg. And, you know, I was I was very regretful and, you know, basically very rarely drove ever again after that. And did you have to pay in like a million surance companies paid? But yeah, we had to go to court and everything. Oh, really? Yeah.
AJ Jacob 36:54
And what's he? Was he forgiving? Or he was like, you know,
James Altucher 36:58
after the court case, we noticed he followed us all the way home to see where we lived and then drove off. That's scary. Yeah, it was a little scary. So we drove around the block a few times because we noticed them following us. My father was driving, and then eventually went home and he was off. Hmm. So wow, that's that's what I do feel bad about. It was completely my fault.
AJ Jacob 37:22
All right. Well, I think he's probably dead now. So
James Altucher 37:26
yeah, so that's 30 years later. 30 Some years later, you're fine.
AJ Jacob 37:30
I did, in my research, read about the first fatal car accident, which I thought was very interesting. 1869 It was a steam powered vehicle steam powered car. And the victim was thrown from the car. Her name was Mary Ward, and the tire ran over her neck and she died. But she was a fascinating character. She was a scientist, a female scientist in England, and very successful. And trivia fun fact. She is the great grandmother of Lila Ward, who played Time Lord Ramona on Doctor Who, and is also the ex wife of Richard Dawkins. Oh my gosh. So there you go. Well, I do think that we underestimate just how dangerous cars are. I mean, we all know it. But I remember after 911 and everyone was afraid of flying. And I believe it was in Nasim to labs book, where he tried to calculate how many more people were killed, because they all started driving instead of flying. And driving is infinitely more dangerous than flying even after 911. So we're totally irrational and underestimate how deadly these things are.
James Altucher 38:51
Yeah, I don't know if as I seem to live or freaking out might have been a new book super Freakonomics. That's all 911 ended up with more indirect car deaths because people stopped flying. In the end, the death rate on planes as much is much lower.
AJ Jacob 39:06
You're absolutely right. It was Freakonomics. So sorry. Sorry, Stephen. And start sorry, Nassim. So what should we go on to the bad and the ugly? Well, lambda, that's kind of bad, like killing three and a half million people that but yes, but we'll do even more. But I
James Altucher 39:25
do think I do think the rise in automated cars. We're seeing evidence, even with this first wave of technology that moves desk can quickly go to, you know, trivial amounts.
AJ Jacob 39:36
Yeah, I agree. I agree. That is one of the great promises. But you are going to get a lot of pushback from the firm traditionalists who for a while yeah, like me transition. Right. But I'm with the overall Alright, so now some other bands, or Yeah, so here are, I mean, pollution light, and to the world. Apocalyptic Climate change, and cars are one there many culprits, but cars are up there. Alright, so
James Altucher 40:06
So cars accounted for about 20% of the world's car carbon emissions and other types of emissions that affect the environment. And you know, whether or not you know, you're a believer or a disbeliever and climate change at the very least cars and the the, the output from these internal combustion engines and fossil fuels and so on, and creat create, you know, massive pollution in cities. And it's not just carbon emissions, it's also when cars hit the road, they're heavy enough that it sprays, dirt and, you know, parts of the road everywhere and miniscule amounts that also hit the environment.
AJ Jacob 40:50
So that bad for the lungs. Is that the problem? Yeah, ah, interesting. Yeah, I got my research said in America, it's 17% of our total greenhouse gas emissions. So it's not everything, you've also got cattle and planes and all sorts of other problems. But if you eliminate cars, you'll you'll be taken a step in the right direction. And you
James Altucher 41:14
know, what's interesting, too, is if you live in a suburb, you have a bigger carbon footprint, which means the amount of carbon emissions you're accountable for, than if you live in a city, in part, because if you're live in a suburban area, you're driving a lot more.
AJ Jacob 41:29
I know, that makes me feel superior. The downside
James Altucher 41:31
for you is that you live in close proximity to probably, you know, 1000 Rats.
AJ Jacob 41:38
I'm okay with that. I'm okay. As long as you don't see them. Yeah. But I do see them. I see him in the subway all the time.
James Altucher 41:45
Oh, yeah. Kind of scurrying on the tracks,
AJ Jacob 41:48
I find it's a good exercise in reframing, because I'm just like, it's wildlife, you know, animals. They're just animals. And like, you know, and I have had lots of mice in my apartment that I tried to reframe them as pets, like, Oh, they're just pets that I don't have to feed. How do you reframe cockroaches. Also very small pets.
James Altucher 42:11
Good for you that you could do that.
AJ Jacob 42:13
Successful, but I try.
James Altucher 42:15
But related to this and related to the environment, oh, I want to hit the pollution thing, again, is, you know, the rise in cars is directly correlated to the rise in suburbs. So because now you can, again, as we said before, you could drive 3040 Miles comfortably to work, you don't have to live in the city used to be if you couldn't work in New York City, if you lived in Trenton, New Jersey, for instance, just 70 miles away. But with the rise of cars, you can potentially commute from large distances. And this is this is actually damaged the environment in interesting ways, which is that you cut down these forests, the wildlife has to find somewhere to go. So you destroy these huge areas of land, you know, hundreds or 1000s of square miles around every major city where wildlife could no longer live, because people put their fake lawns and their swimming pools and their big McMansions. And you know, from mile after mile. And there's no real coordinated public transportation system because everything is is spread out so far. So you need cars, and you need larger plots of land. And you know, so again, you bring up wildlife, reframing that as New York City wildlife, but wildlife in general has been and that related to the environment. It's not only pollution, it's kind of the natural indigenous species of every area, suburban areas gone, because of because of cars.
AJ Jacob 43:47
By the way, this brings up a little point. I want to pay tribute to my family because my grandfather was actually a transportation rebel. He was a lawyer in New York, and he was very much. This was like 30 years ago, he was in favor of congestion pricing. And he wanted the subways to be free. He wrote our op eds in the New York Times advocating free subways as a civil right,
James Altucher 44:16
which probably could have been paid for by congested, congested pricing. That
AJ Jacob 44:20
was his argument. And some people hate congestion pricing. So I apologize on behalf of my grandpa to them, but I do think it'd be interesting to see if his system would work better. It might
James Altucher 44:31
in again, it's not off the table with the rise in automated cars. They'll just automatically pay to pay no, no, because they're all communicating with each other. They'll know when there's congestion or not, in ways that we won't necessarily humans won't necessarily know.
AJ Jacob 44:46
So when the based on the district it would be based on whether you're in traffic.
James Altucher 44:51
Yeah. So it'd be kind of a dynamic pricing based on actual congestion dialed in. No, I love it. I want to mention on the environment original Only cars were great for the environment. Because it particularly in urban areas, and there was horse manure in the streets, the big invite the global warming of 1900 was the fact that and this was talked about also in Super Freakonomics, the bit the, the global warming of 1900 was the fact that there was, you know, two or three feet of horse manure every day left on the streets of New York City. And they were starting to figure out how are we going to shovel all this away every single day. And they thought that within 10 years, New York City would basically collapse because of the weight of the NOR, essentially, yeah, that there would be so much more it would be New York City would be unlivable and unworkable. And cars, it goes to show you that we sometimes don't always know the solutions to complicated problems. So the solutions we're thinking of now for major societal problems might completely change by inventions over the next five to 10 years. But cars eliminated that entire problem.
AJ Jacob 46:06
Right? And caused other unintended consequences. But yeah, that I do remember reading about the like the chin high walls of horsemen are on the streets of New York, it is just mind boggling. If you traveled back 100 years, can you imagine what New York smelled like, it's just, you know, there are problems with New York, but I am thankful it is not the literal shit show that it used to be exactly. Um, and it's interesting, I looked into this a little because I wanted to know, are horses or cars better for the environment. And I found one source, it was the Science Museum of the Exploratorium. And it talked about, if you have one horse with one rider and one car with one rider, horses are actually worse in terms of greenhouse emissions, because you've got to feed the horse and the horse burps and farts, and, and all that. So. So if cars were never invented, and everyone had their own horse, we would still be screwed greenhouse emission wise, if you start adding people into the cars. So if you have two people in a car, cars are actually more efficient, greenhouse wise than, than horses, and three and four. So yeah, cars redeem themselves if you have more people in them,
James Altucher 47:26
but I think this all blends into, we're kind of on the tail end of kind of, you know, cars that we drive, and we're in the beginning of an era where first there's gonna be, you know, our cars, we're going to buy a Tesla, and it's going to be automated, but then there's going to be just robot cars that we don't own, that are driving us around. And on the one hand, you know, probably those are going to be electric or hybrid. So there's not going to be as much, you know, fossil fuels and carbon emissions going into the air, there's arguably arguably going to be other environmental issues, like the cost of creating a heavier battery, will make use of fossil fuels, you know, at wherever they at the plant. And so that it's unclear, the environmental changes, but it seems like electric cars will be better for the environment, which is why people are buying hybrids right now, and Tesla's and so on. And then also those cars will be heavier, so potentially more damage to the roads, and again, spitting up bad dust for the environment. But so, and with automated cars, it could be better for Psych psychology that you'll be able to sleep in the back of your car or read or whatever, while you're commuting 90 miles to work at you potentially have a longer commute. So we didn't mention that. The longer commute is reversely correlated to happiness. So the longer you commute to work, potentially the unhappy you are, but that statistic might change if you're just sleeping in the back of your car, because it's an automated car. And I, we talked a little bit about automated cars. But Ben, there's that the economic advantage is that hundreds of billions of dollars in efficiencies will be created as trucks are automated. So you don't have to, you know, truck stop every 11 hours so the truck drivers could rest with automated trucks, they'll never stop, you will get your goods that much faster. The estimate is it'll save about $120 billion in the trucking industry, and they'll be much fewer cars and trucks on the roads that helps the environment and so on. But as mentioned before, there are so many people related to supporting employed supporting the trucking industry, including the truck drivers that this could have a massive negative effect on the economy despite these hundreds of billions of dollars in efficiencies. It's expected this is this is coming from Andrew Yang. He he expects between three and three and a half million truck drivers could lose their job. jobs in the next five to 10 years. And these are people who most of them don't have a college degree 94% are male and middle aged and might not have the time to transition to to new, harder skills because there's not going to be jobs opening up with equivalent skills. And he's worried this could be, you know, massive revolution because that this could be the start of it.
AJ Jacob 50:25
Yeah, well, I think I agree with him when he talks about how repub most people in America are obsessed with immigration and how that's gonna affect the job market. But, but automation is going to have a much bigger impact, and that's going to put out so many more people out of jobs.
James Altucher 50:43
There are other equivalent things like the rise of ATM machines, everyone was worried there will be no more need for cashiers. Instead, the banks got so profitable because of ATM machines. There's now they started introducing new services and now you have a bank on every corner, increasing the need for teller. So it actually created more tellers, the rise of ATM machines, despite the fears, and, of course, the downfall of horses, the rise of cars, all the people who drove horses were out of a job, but then they ended up driving cabs or whatever. Andrew Yang's point, I guess is that truck drivers don't have an equivalent job market to go to they truly will be unemployed, hence the need for his arguments, hence the need for a UBI. I think it's unclear. But it's just that is a potential catastrophe of automated cars. But in general, whenever there's been huge efficiencies, and increased productivity in the market, that's usually been a good thing for the economy. So and it's created gaps that we weren't aware of where there would be need for employees. But it's unclear if we'll need any employees as automation increases. But that's kind of a topic for another good or bad was specifically with cars. Andrew Yang's point is that the problems of automation will start with the rise of self driving trucks.
AJ Jacob 52:01
Hmm. Yeah, no, that was a that'll be interesting to see how it plays out. Can I before we wrap up? Can I bring up one other negative of cars? Yes. And this is from an article advice. The writer made this point. And the article was again, like, why I hate cars. And it was I, as he put it, cars turn you into assholes, which I think is a is an interesting point. Because road rage is a real thing. Like when someone cuts me off, I really get pissed off. And I think a lot of it has to do with I can't see the other person's face. Like when you're in the sidewalk, and someone accidentally cuts you off, you know that you can turn they turn around and they shrug like Sorry, you know, we're gonna or you get
James Altucher 52:45
into a fistfight. But we'll pull out a gun and start shooting at cars on the highway.
AJ Jacob 52:53
But yeah, it's so impersonal. It's just this big hunk of metal. And it brings out the worst in us.
James Altucher 52:59
You know it to some extent, it's like a real life Twitter. So but the benefit of Twitter is that, okay, in cars and cars on the highway and Twitter, everybody's anonymous, so you get this unusual rage that you wouldn't have, like you say, face to face. But on Twitter, I can't pull out a gun and shoot someone. But the problem with road rage is there actually is, you know, people kill each other. You can't you can't kill someone through a tweet. But with a car, you're first off, you're driving, you know, essentially a weapon. And you could have a weapon inside that weapon, you know, as well. So I think I'm looking at, yeah, the rise of road road rage incidents. I'm looking at a graph right now are year over year, it goes up every single year. So really, yeah, it's in the it's not an it's not in the millions or the 1000s in the hundreds. But there was basically 800 road rage incidents in 2017.
AJ Jacob 54:01
I love that analogy that cars are like Twitter. It's like a live Twitter. But worse, because you can actually do physical damage. It'll be fascinating to see how self driving cars affect road rage. You know, will the robots get in fights? Well,
James Altucher 54:16
well, well, there's actually a lot of software in place so they don't so for instance, one is there a lot more able to anticipate a cars that are nearby so there's no accidental brushes of other cars and you know, hitting someone from behind accidentally while you're, you know, on the phone or whatever. There's an even for parking. They'll they'll adjudicate the two because the cars are talking to each other. They'll adjudicate who, who fairly earned this parking spot. They'll be rules for this built into the software.
AJ Jacob 54:49
Although I did hear an interesting debate about who makes the rules. And for instance, you've got a program an algorithm if you're Your Electric your self driving cars going down the highway. And there's an old lady. And then, you know, 10 year old, like, which one is he? Which one is too
James Altucher 55:11
late to swerve? Yeah, this is, uh, this is kind of a classic automated car problem, right?
AJ Jacob 55:16
It's the trolley problem, basically. And so who does the electric charge? I mean, the self driving car choose,
James Altucher 55:22
I have never been in a situation where I'm driving. And suddenly, out of nowhere, one lane has an old lady and the other one has a bagel.
AJ Jacob 55:30
Just because you don't drive it happens to me like every other day? Well, this has been a lot of fun. And we have come to no conclusions whatsoever. Well, what do you think? What do you think cars good or bad?
James Altucher 55:44
I think I think cars good and getting better. But I think it's worth questioning the rise of automation on this first kind of the frontline of automation, which is going to be these these truck drivers, 3 million truck drivers that that the country can't afford to have out of work. So So really, the good or bad is going to be I kind of think the environmental damage, to be honest, is going to stay the same Automate, you know, except for the fact there's going to be fewer cars on the road. So instead of 200 million cars in a row, there might be 100 million cars on the road. So that'll help the environment. But per car, I don't know if there's going to be any difference. And, and the economy. And also on the one hand, it doesn't mean hundreds of billions or even a trillion dollars in efficiencies, ultimately, by having self driving cars and trucks. But we have to be able to take care of the people who are directly and going to be harmed by it even as early as five years from now. And so something like a UBI might be interesting, or we'll see if these efficiencies, create new industries that will hire these people. But But I doubt it because automation is creeping into all of these newer industries as well.
AJ Jacob 56:53
Yeah. I mean, I am also overall, I'm optimistic about the future of cars, because I think the improvements are on the whole good, like self driving cars and, and electric cars, which do emit about a quarter of the emissions that
James Altucher 57:13
although their factories will emit more is the worry. Hmm.
AJ Jacob 57:17
Right. My understanding was that it will pay off in the end, but maybe that's not true. But anyway, yeah, overall, I'm optimistic about the far future. It'll be a bumpy road, to use the car metaphor. And, yeah, well now, and I think
James Altucher 57:34
the past in the past, cars are probably a good thing. As you start off in increasing freedom, freedom of choice of goods that we buy, and foods that we buy freedom of choice in jobs that we choose, you know, unfortunately, probably was a rise in divorce is probably somewhat correlated, the rise in cars because freedom to drive out of the village you live in, to marry someone else, or meet someone else. And, and you're not limited to just the people who live a few blocks away. But you know, ultimately, freedom was probably a good thing that that cars brought to society. And it's no, it's not a surprise that the country that most quickly adopted cars, the US was is also by far the largest economy in the world.
AJ Jacob 58:17
There you go. So I've basically I've got to stop taking the subway and start driving more driverless electric cars, and I'll be a happier person. All right, well, now I'm going to walk home and because I want to create a low carbon footprint and feel superior
James Altucher 58:34
Thank you, AJ.